Toronto's LRT Plans

Transit City - Is it good enough?

Session Notes - 10:40-11:40

Proposed by Daniel Kitts.

Daniel Kitts' issue:

As someone who has taken a lot of surface transit (in both Ottawa and Toronto) I question whether the new streetcar system will provide the speed, reliability and comfort that a modern metro transit system needs. The new streetcars will certainly improve the current system. But no matter how good it is, people will still have to wait outside in the cold, deal with traffic lights, and contend with long delays on days with bad weather. And while it will be faster than buses/legacy streetcars, the new system will not be as fast as the subway. To create a culture where public transit is truly embraced by the majority of people, you need a method of transit that can actually compete with -- even beat -- the speed, ease and comfort of a car. In all my years as a transit rider, the only type of transit that has been able to do that is an underground subway. 

So: While Toronto should definitely consider some advanced streetcar technology, does it -- despite the enormous costs and numerous political headaches -- need to also look at creating new subway lines or medium capacity rail lines (a midway point between light rail and subway)...particularly on Eglinton?  

The discussion: 

---Observation that we still don't know much about the new streetcar plans.

---Concerned that the new streetcars will simply be a glorified version of the Spadina and St. Clair dedicated-lane streetcars (Short stop spacing, congestion, no traffic light priority), which in the view of most (if not all participants) would  be an inadequate solution to the city's transit issues.

 ---The big question is whether Transit City is fast enough. Spadina's average speed is 13 km/h. Subway average seed is 35-40 km/h. New streetcars would apparently be 20 to 25 km/h. Is that fast enough? Many skeptical.

---Basic questions to ask. Is an LRT line appropriate or is a subway appropriate? Eglinton as an example, as a corridor with intensification potential.

---Transit City: does it address the needs of the communities that it will service?  Streetcars encourage the development of main streets (shops, restaurants, etc.) which subways do not. But the idea that the type of "latte sipping" main street development seen on Queen and St. Clair will be seen on Eglinton is unlikely. Leading to the question: Is a streetcar service really the best type of service for Eglinton? Mike, an urban planner, said he really doesn't think the city has really thought about these sorts of development issues when putting together Transit City. He also stresses: Every line has different issues/needs. Eglinton will go to the airport. What will it be like to ride a streetcar to the airport? Not sure that's a good idea.

---Ed expressed the following: TC (Transit City) is an evolution. Comes from sense of fustration that subways were built, but only served narrow areas. The city did not have access to the railway lines where LRT would be possible (ie Weston Corridor), or even the “REX” (RER-type system), where freight railways call shots. It has access to the roads. Building underground has costs, and the subway lines were political. TC fills a gap. Metrolinx is getting involved now, maybe things will change. Transit City does go to the point of dealing with providing effective transit to areas that have none. But, in 30 years, will we regret not having built subway lines? Then again, inaction is the worst possible outcome, and he can't currently see the resources for  building subway lines.

---Concern expressed by several people that some of the alignments proposed do not work. The Malvern line, for example. View expressed that political considerations played too much of a role in determining what lines went where. Observation that the proposed lines run through every ward in the city. Good planning or just politics?

---Sean: Transit City feels like putting lines on a map without looking at the ground. Some routes will be great as quasi-local service -Finch West, Jane, will be great, Eglinton with the underground section will be great, but some places like Malvern are not, as the lines miss where the people are and serve very suburban routes.

---What is the goal of Transit City? Development? Improve transit? Or is it aesthetic? The city has not developed its goals for what TC will do.

---St. Clair Avenue West – is the dense development there – bars, restaurants patios. Is this possible on suburban arterials such as Sheppard or Eglinton through Scarborough?

---Sean: There's little discussion on radial routes, on rapid transit, on connectivity. Needs to be more discussion by the city on these points.

---Is there somewhere between subway and LRT – ie a mini-metro like ICTS – Skytrain/Canada Line in Vancouver we should be looking at? TTC/politicians don't seem to look at these options. They go straight from LRT to heavy, deep underground subway lines. If subway lines are what's best, you don't need to go for the most expensive option (i.e. deep subway lines that are expensive and hard to build) but polticians always seem to go directly to that most expensive option when discussing subways.

---Chris D: Advocacy should take place with regards to routes. Cannot sit back and let politicans decide without our input: Even though the basic plan is there, there are many important decisions yet to be made. Need to get more transit projects started. But need to make sure advocacy is there to avoid mistakes. Can't have another Sheppard Subway. If we don't do advocacy, we will regret we didn't do it right and push for it.

---Chris D: One thing to push for is a review mechanism so that certain lines can be upgraded or changed as needed. i.e. Making sure Eglinton can be upgraded from LRT to medium capacity/subway if, years down the road, LRT becomes inadequate to deal with demand.

---Jason: As a downtowner for 10 years, sees problems with St. Clair, Spadina, Queen streetcars, etc. Has given up on legacy streetcars as a way of getting around. So feels it's important that Transit City gives us something very different from what we have now.  Isn't excited by “Taking Streetcars Where They've Never Gone Before” -- Fears all that's doing is bringing unreliable streetcars to the suburbs. There's a big hole in Transit City's plans –- downtown Toronto, where nothing's going to be improved. Focus on new ridership, rather than serving existing, under-served riders. This is a big problem: If you look at areas that are growing downtown, they are almost all on the legacy streetcar system. So you have people moving downtown, working downtown, and still using cars because the legacy streetcars are so unreliable. Transit City does nothing to address this.

---Chris L: When people fear the costs of new subways, they don't consider that there may be ways to reduce the costs: Cheaper, lighter subway cars; simple stations (avoiding the elaborate design and art costs of the Sheppard Stations); Proof of Payment. Is a streetcar subway really cheaper than a full subway? Problem with public consultation, expects a fight ahead.

---Chris L: Was involved in the St. Clair streetcar battle. That caused huge public outcry, even though that community already had streetcars. Now you're saying you're going to put dedicated lines along Finch, where everyone drives? Fears the political battles, even though EA process changed.

---Streamlining of EA process raises concerns: Fear that it will not give time to discuss specific yet important issues with the public (i.e. where stations are placed on the road).  Are the three meetings for Sheppard East TC enough? Will there be big issues? There's been little planning.

---The idea of Downtown Relief Line is what might be needed in Downtown. Transit City will add congestion to the subways, like Don Mills LRT to Pape. It was proposed in the 1980s to relieve congestion at Bloor-Yonge Station and the lower Yonge Line. The DRL needs to get back on the radar screen to address development. From King to St. Clair, the Yonge Line is over capacity. This is bad for safety due to station and train overcrowding.

---The former industrial areas are being redeveloped (ie Liberty Village, Queen/Dufferin, East Waterfront) and will be very dense areas. The DRL would service these areas.